Recruits

[Rooster]

And we saw what happened when the lunatics had them; that entire Cold War thing. These nuclear weapons should never go in the hands of anyone that might ever use them.

Then what's the bloody point in any of them? What is the point in spending billions of dollars on something you're never going to use, then fighting a war of secrets against another nation doing the same...nuclear proliferation seems retarded. Also, it takes two sets of lunatics to have a "cold" war, not just one.

The only reason why I can call Hiroshima/Nagasaki an exception is both because then, we had no clue of their true devestation and the circumstances of that specific scenario. We found out, and never have used them again. They're literally terrible, and the only use those weapons have in the world is to prevent them from ever being used since it's too late to undo their existance.

Bullshit. I'm sorry to lower the tone, but the US Government of Harry Truman knew exactly what would happen when they dropped those bombs, as did the scientists that worked on them, and anyone else who was present at The Trinity Test in the New Mexico desert. You think they dropped two bombs for any reason other than to see which one worked better? The Japanese were ready to give up after the first, after they realised there was no honour in being incinerated. There was no need for Fat Man.

The Shah of Iran was restructuring the nation to be more western, including giving women the right to vote. The Ayatollah didn't like that and revolted, and we decided against supporting a fundamentalist Islamic Republic against the already established government which was pro-west and working towards better human and civil rights. Unfortunately, the Shah lost and the Ayatollahs know how to hold a grudge.

Actually, not only is the new Ayatollah pretty much the only thing stopping the Iranian President from attacking everyone, the first "in-power" (Khomeini I think) rebelled against his govenment for the belief that they were becomming "just another western country" as opposed to a great Persian state. Also, The Shah was not a very pleasant person. He used his intelligence agencies to crush any and all religious and political opposition, including imprisoning Khomeini for 18 months on trumped up charges.

So before you go defending the previous Iranian government, remember that some of the worst governments in history have been pro-west. Pinoche's, Nguyen Van Thieu's, Saddam's Iraq (before 1991).

Also, I find it funny that it's a communist and an anarchist arguing this point...the last time us lot worked together we ended up shooting at each other in Spain

[Loeln]

Actually, not only is the new Ayatollah pretty much the only thing stopping the Iranian President from attacking everyone, the first "in-power" (Khomeini I think) rebelled against his govenment for the belief that they were becomming "just another western country" as opposed to a great Persian state. Also, The Shah was not a very pleasant person. He used his intelligence agencies to crush any and all religious and political opposition, including imprisoning Khomeini for 18 months on trumped up charges.

So before you go defending the previous Iranian government, remember that some of the worst governments in history have been pro-west. Pinoche's, Nguyen Van Thieu's, Saddam's Iraq (before 1991).

I know. None of them were/are the best human/civil rights wise; we just went for the guy that seemed to be working in the right direction.

Bullshit. I'm sorry to lower the tone, but the US Government of Harry Truman knew exactly what would happen when they dropped those bombs, as did the scientists that worked on them, and anyone else who was present at The Trinity Test in the New Mexico desert. You think they dropped two bombs for any reason other than to see which one worked better? The Japanese were ready to give up after the first, after they realised there was no honour in being incinerated. There was no need for Fat Man.

And yeah, that test showed what the blast could do. In a desert. To a wooden house. Radiation what? No clue.

That aside, there are the circumstances of the event.

Then what's the bloody point in any of them? What is the point in spending billions of dollars on something you're never going to use, then fighting a war of secrets against another nation doing the same...nuclear proliferation seems retarded. Also, it takes two sets of lunatics to have a "cold" war, not just one.

I never said the US wasn't lunatical either. The policy of MAD is exactly what it sounds; mad. However, it's too late to go back. This tech that we learned was not forgotten, and the technology for nuclear devices has advanced too far. A bomb that destroys most a city is now considered amazingly small and with the arms at the height of the cold war there were so many of so high a strength that they could destroy the world utterly four times over at least. The only defense either nation had against a nuclear attack was the fact that they had the same weapons, and could (and would) use them against the nation that fired first, destroying that nation as it destroyed them, ensuring that no one would "win". Now, the technology has only advanced further while the defense has stayed the same - the fact that anyone that uses such a weapon will not outlive whoever they use them against.

It's kinda like two men standing with a gun pointed at the others head. If either pulls the trigger, then both will die, which is why neither will ever pull their trigger. Add to those two men another man with a gun for every nation with nuclear weapons, and you have the current situation. The existence of the guns and the ensured death they can bring ensures that they will not be. The fact that the nukes exist and could be fired ensures that they will not be.

'Course, if ever any gunman isn't afeared of death, it all falls apart and everyone is at risk. Translated into nuclear arms and it's literally everyone. Hence why no nation which is thought to show signs that it ever would use such a weapon is given the capability for them.

Smart? No. Irresponsible and Dangerous? Definetely. Effective? So far.

Welcome to the world we live in.

[Comrade K]

Also Comrade, the only reason why the government of Iran (do not confuse the government of a nation with its people) is because of the support we gave to the Shah against the Ayatollah. The Shah of Iran was restructuring the nation to be more western, including giving women the right to vote. The Ayatollah didn't like that and revolted, and we decided against supporting a fundamentalist Islamic Republic against the already established government which was pro-west and working towards better human and civil rights. Unfortunately, the Shah lost and the Ayatollahs know how to hold a grudge.

I know the story. But that doesn't mean anythng. In this discussion, it doesn't matter why they (the government of Iran) hate the US, what matters is how to stop them from developing A-bombs and trying to obliterate Israel, America etc., and what I'm saying, is that no matter who the lunatic in power is, he's gonna get more support if his people see the US as their enemy. And by pushing them around, the US will make itself out to be their enemy, even if American intentions are benign. I'm not confusing people with their government, but I bet far fewer people in Iraq hated the US in Iraq before the invasion. It's easier to believe what the Ayatollah or the Extremist Imam or whoever else is saying, when it's being proven (at least in their eyes) all around them.

And concerning the two nuclear weapons dropped on Japan, my reasoning behind considering them "terrorist" attacks is based on the targets, not the use of the weapons themselves. In order to achieve the whole "shock" thing, the US used the weapons against 2 cities. I think the bombs would've been almost as effective in intimidating the Japanese if they had been used on military installations or the like instead. Not as much fear in the general population, but also a lot fewer civilian casualties.

Then what's the bloody point in any of them? What is the point in spending billions of dollars on something you're never going to use, then fighting a war of secrets against another nation doing the same...nuclear proliferation seems retarded. Also, it takes two sets of lunatics to have a "cold" war, not just one.

They're good deterrents. If you have nuclear weapons, nobody's gonna touch you. That was what happened in the cold war. Both factions knew that if only one of them had nuclear weapons, that faction could use them without fear of retaliation, and win out. So both made sure the other wouldn't try anything by building way too many bombs between them. It's like sticking a sticker on your house that says "This house protected by (insert alarm company name here). That prevents burglars or whatever from going into the house in the first place, so, ironically, it is because you have it that it will never be used. I still don't agree with the weapons, but that should answer your question, if Loe's post didn't...

[Loeln]

I quote the honorable BP.

"America is like Wal-Mart. Everyone hates us, but they still rely on us for everything."

[Doc Sigma]

That's an awesome quote. I might have to steal it.

(Who's BP? Sorry if it's obvious, I'm very tired.)

[Richard K Niner]

"America is like Wal-Mart. Everyone hates us, but they still rely on us for everything."

The only thing we rely on America for is not to get blown to itty bits by them.

[Loeln]

Next time you eat McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, Hardees, Subway, KFC, Arbeese, White Castle, Jack in the Box, Denny's, etc.,
drink Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, A&W Root Beer, Sprite, Mountain Dew, etc.,
shop at Walmart, Target, ShopKo, Kmart, Pamida, etc.,
ride/drive in a Ford, GM, Dodge, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, etc.
Or export your canuckian oil,
say that.

Besides which, Canada isn't included as everyone as it's not one of the countries that greatly hates us; it's like Britain and Germany. D:

(Who's BP? Sorry if it's obvious, I'm very tired.)

Initials of the friend who made the quote.

[Rooster]

Besides which, Canada isn't included as everyone as it's not one of the countries that greatly hates us; it's like Britain and Germany. D:

Err, actually anti-US sentiments in most of Europe are very high...

Plus, of all the things you listed, I rely on none. Only thing I rely on the US for is producing some good music. All my "yank" made stuff was bought for me, except my army jackets, and I think even they were made in Mexico.

[Richard K Niner]

Next time you eat McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, Hardees, Subway, KFC, Arbeese, White Castle, Jack in the Box, Denny's, etc.,

But not Harveys, Swiss Chalet, St. Hubert, East Side Mario's, etc.

drink Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, A&W Root Beer, Sprite, Mountain Dew, etc.,

Which I don't drink...

shop at Walmart, Target, ShopKo, Kmart, Pamida, etc.,

Zellers, Loblaws, Shoppers Drug Mart, Home Hardware...

ride/drive in a Ford, GM, Dodge, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, etc.

I don't drive, and all the busses around here are built in Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, or Belgium

Or export your canuckian oil

...half of which goes to China now And even still, that's technically the other way around.

[Doc Sigma]

East Side Mario

[Tom Flapwell]

BP, BP... Brad Pitt? Bill Pullman? Beatrix Potter?

[Loeln]

Next time you eat McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, Hardees, Subway, KFC, Arbeese, White Castle, Jack in the Box, Denny's, etc.,

But not Harveys, Swiss Chalet, St. Hubert, East Side Mario's, etc.

drink Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, A&W Root Beer, Sprite, Mountain Dew, etc.,

Which I don't drink...

shop at Walmart, Target, ShopKo, Kmart, Pamida, etc.,

Zellers, Loblaws, Shoppers Drug Mart, Home Hardware...

ride/drive in a Ford, GM, Dodge, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, etc.

I don't drive, and all the busses around here are built in Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, or Belgium

Or export your canuckian oil

...half of which goes to China now And even still, that's technically the other way around.

Yadda Yadda Yadda. I know all the exceptions. Unfortunately, it's not my quote, and I cannot edit it to fit each and every exception everyone points out to spite and ignore the actual sentiment and gist of the quote.

Plus, of all the things you listed, I rely on none. Only thing I rely on the US for is producing some good music. All my "yank" made stuff was bought for me, except my army jackets, and I think even they were made in Mexico.

Good for you. See above.

[Richard K Niner]

Well, fine then. It's fundamentally flawed for the simple reason that using some product and/or service does not mean relying on it. If it weren't there, we would be using alternatives.

And if it's not your quote, where's the attribution/who hijacked your account?

[Loeln]

I quote the honorable BP.

"America is like Wal-Mart. Everyone hates us, but they still rely on us for everything."

Quote attributed to BP, as I doubt he (or anyone really) would want their full name to be given on a random internet forum.

[Richard K Niner]

I quote the honorable BP.

"America is like Wal-Mart. Everyone hates us, but they still rely on us for everything."

Quote attributed to BP, as I doubt he (or anyone really) would want their full name to be given on a random internet forum.

I meant the one after it