Story premise (critical eye needed)

[Muninn]

Of course the English dude makes the USA attack canada.

And makes the USA lose in the Third World War. Piece by piece the liberal agenda is revealing itself.

[Rooster]

I just wondered about how, if any way, the USA would collapse like the British Empire did pre-1939.

Also, Canada become the next global superpower rivalling China. How's that for liberal agenda?

[Loeln]

Also, Canada become the next global superpower rivalling China. How's that for liberal agenda?

Astoundingly unrealistic.

[jent]

I just wondered about how, if any way, the USA would collapse like the British Empire did pre-1939.

Are you talking about ways where the US would collapse but the UK would not? I can think of a few ways to cause a collapse of the US, but it would take the UK and other nations down with it......They have suprisingly similar needs.

And with that aside even if the US did collapse without other countries having similar issues.....in todays global economy a collapse of the US would be a collapse of the world.

[Bocaj Claw]

Yay! We ARE all gonna die! I'll make the uranium cakes!

[Tom Flapwell]

Hm. I think that in "Dark Angel," terrorists found a way to disable America's computers, turning it poor overnight. But if you want to make sure that nations like the U.K. and Canada don't suffer from a lack of U.S. commerce, probably the way to go is gradual. Let other powers catch up, possibly via the invention or discovery of a high-demand resource.

[Loeln]

Yay! We ARE all gonna die! I'll make the uranium cakes!

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1690756

There is no recorded name for the U.S. system so I'll just refer to it as the Doomsday Machine, another common moniker for the Soviet/Russian version. The Doomsday Machine (DM), like Dead Hand, works off a nationwide network of sensors and monitors on communication lines. These monitors are placed on links between, for example, command centres such as NORAD and nuclear missile silos, or early warning radar stations.

The DM is triggered upon detection of a number of nuclear explosions and the simultaneous loss of communications between these facilities. Upon detection of this, a series of ballistic missiles are launched from around the country. As with the Soviet/Russian system these missiles contain communication packages. Between them they overfly every nuclear missile silo in the continental U.S. (possibly silos based abroad are also covered, though I could not find confirmation of this). On passing each missile silo a message is relayed containing an order to the installation commander to launch all missiles, together with the PAL key codes required for doing so. The commanders, human hesitation notwithstanding, then proceed to launch their missiles.

[Rooster]

In my future, the third world war is caused initially through tensions within the US itself.

I glossed over it, but here's the wrap:

As the worlds oil begins to dry up, the US, who's very economy, starts to buy up as many barrels as it can. When the US corporations owning the wells and fields in Texas and other oil producing states start charging unrealistic prices for the oil, and taking fields by force with paid merceneries.

This begins to happen throughout most of the southern states, as the US Government tries to contain it by issuing marshall law.

Seeing states ready to take up arms against the military, the President, in a move to reunite his country and ease the oil crisis, starts trying to buy Canadian and European oil. The Canadians and the Europeans, under the same oil crisis as the USA, flat out refuse.

After another six months of increasing tensions between the Canadians, the USA, Europe, and the UN...the USA invades Canada. Shortly after, the US Navy capture the North Sea oil rigs and land ground forces in Ireland as a stepping stone to the United Kingdom.

The UN declares these moves, as well as the USA's use of fur-soldiers, as illigal, and begins rallying sympathetic nations as a show of strength.

Months of political wrangling ensues, but during this time, the Royal Navy and the US Navy engage in actions off the coast of Scotland. The US ships are defeated, but in retaliation the US invades mainland UK.

Realising they're outnumbered and outgunned, the nations opposed to the US actions begin creating their own fur soldiers to oppose the massive swathes of American military might.

The US responds to these actions by airstriking key nations airfields and fur-factories. Argentina, Brazil, South Africa, Russia, Germany, China, and France are all attacked by F-117 fighters as a pre-empted attack.

This triggers WW3. Canada and Northern Europe are the main fighting grounds, and after 7 years and 5 atomic weapon strikes, the USA surrenders, and states splinter away. Most of the northern border states and Alaska defect and become part of Canada, while the Hawaii and all the East Coast States down to Florida become independant. This leaves the US with 25 states, the capital city being in Springfield, Illinois.

After the war, the country looks like this -



It is still economically strong enough to function with UN (now called United Allied Nations) support.

The reason Canada becomes the next superpower is that over the next 50 years after the war, vast swathes of American and European people and buisnesses head over and take their wealth with them (much like people did to the USA after WW2) Add to that, that the first synthetic oil is created in Canada, a creation that saves the industries.

As for the UK, well, I never said it was called the United Kingdom. After the war, the monarchy step down, and in their place a new "Chancellor" position sort of like a president is introduced. The country is now called just "Britain", and consists of England, Scotland, and Wales, each running their own affairs but still collaberating together on important issues such as money and the people.

Ireland, is of course, seperate.

Remember though, this is meant to be a Dystopian vision...

[Angstwolf]

Eastern Republic pride!

I really like how much thought you're putting into this. Dystopia novels are my favourite type of reading, so I'm sure I'd read this.

[CodeCat]

Ireland, is of course, seperate.

Remember though, this is meant to be a Dystopian vision...

Uh, wha-?

UP THE REPUBLIC!!!

[Loeln]

In my future, the third world war is caused initially through tensions within the US itself.

I glossed over it, but here's the wrap:

As the worlds oil begins to dry up, the US, who's very economy, starts to buy up as many barrels as it can. When the US corporations owning the wells and fields in Texas and other oil producing states start charging unrealistic prices for the oil, and taking fields by force with paid merceneries.

This begins to happen throughout most of the southern states, as the US Government tries to contain it by issuing marshall law.

The US already has an oil reserve, containing a "couple" of barrels for use whenever in the case of an oil crisis. The oil companies are privately owned, so there are no "oil producing states"; only oil producing companies located within the states, and those companies do not produce so much as to greatly affect US oil costs were they to stop production. OPEC, however....

Further, if companies in the US began charging outrageous prices, then the Federal government can literally take control of those companies and institute price freezes, and et cetera to control the price and production of oil as the National government sees fit. If the companies resist by force, well, there is also no mercenary force that could possibly stand up and successfully defend against the US Military. Any company that tried would first face the local police. Then the state national guard. Then the US armed forces. Considering that those mercenary forces would be trying to keep hold of specific oil fields, they would have to defend those oil fields against all of the above. At most, they could maybe lock themselves in, but then, the authorities can shut off the water, gas, and electricity for the oil field and more or less starve the mercenaries out. If mercenaries took over an oil field by force, that oil field would not long have power to operate, and would quickly become worthless to any Shinra-esque corporation.

'Course, whether any company would hire mercs anyways is doubtful. Most likely they'd hire lobbyists to protest the government or would go on strike from production such as the coal workers union did in the seventies ...before being ordered back to work by the Government.

Seeing states ready to take up arms against the military, the President, in a move to reunite his country and ease the oil crisis, starts trying to buy Canadian and European oil. The Canadians and the Europeans, under the same oil crisis as the USA, flat out refuse.

Canada produces 3.1 million barrels of oil per day. The US is the main consumer of Canadian oil exports. If Canadian companies refused to sell oil to the US, their profits would most likely greatly suffer. If you argue that the oil crisis in the story is so great that every nation in the world is hoarding, then the situation is far beyond the point of being solved by by taking oil from others. Not to mention why we'd not go to war with Canada or Britain anyway.

After another six months of increasing tensions between the Canadians, the USA, Europe, and the UN...the USA invades Canada. Shortly after, the US Navy capture the North Sea oil rigs and land ground forces in Ireland as a stepping stone to the United Kingdom.

So let's mention why we wouldn't go to war with Canada or the UK.

With Canada, there's the North American Free Trade Agreement allows Canada and the US to trade goods without tariffs; something which saves US an CA companies a whole lot of money. As stated above, the US already buys 2.4 of Canada's 3.1 millions of barrels a day. Which, applying that ratio to whenever the story is set leaves under 1/3 of Canadian oil not already going to the US. An amount not enough, I believe, to warrant the US government to decide to go to war with Canada and end all economic benefits of NAFTA, our relations with Canada and the UN, Canada's aid militarily to the US, the longest peaceful border in the world, etc.

Britain, however,... well, no. Most all of the above reasons apply with the UK as they do with the CA. Though they don't have NAFTA, considering all economical, diplomatic, culteral, etc. ties we have with one another, the UK would not be a vaible target either.

Beyond which, the US government actually does have checks against just anyone declaring war. In order for the president to declare war, Congress must agree to declare it, and actually approve the size of force that will be sent. To declare war on Canada/the UK, the executive branch would have to actually convince Congress that it's the correct move to make. With what you've written, the US justs attacks Canada and the UK for the oil it has. I doubt that would go over with Congress. Not only from our economic, political, historical, geographical, social, culteral ties with both nations, yet also that resources have never been a good enough reason for US to declare war. Remember, we did not go to war with Iraq saying "Hey, they have oil; we want it." Some might have been thinking it, but it was not the reason. To go to war with Iraq, Bush had to argue that Saddam was some threat to the nation (WMD's, anyone?) before Congress and the UN -an arguement Saddam made all the more legitimate by how he dealt with weapons inspectors. For those reasons and his actions, we declared war. Now really, when there's other nations such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, nations with governments which are threatening and oppressive, which do use oil to affect other nations, which we actually would have arguably just reason to declare war on and wouldn't loose some of the best relations in the world for, do you think either would be viable targets?

The UN declares these moves, as well as the USA's use of fur-soldiers, as illigal, and begins rallying sympathetic nations as a show of strength.

Months of political wrangling ensues, but during this time, the Royal Navy and the US Navy engage in actions off the coast of Scotland. The US ships are defeated, but in retaliation the US invades mainland UK.

Looking at Iraq and Afghanistan and the Cold War, if the US was to make a pre-emptive strike against anyone, why would we use infantry? The airforce can literally drop a bomb anywhere in the world. The missiles of the US can literally be fired at anywhere in the world. Were we to make a pre-emptive strike, it would be with weapons like this that those attacks would be made, against government, communication, production, ecoonomic, and military installations. After destroying/disabling these, then we'd send in the foot soldiers. Not before.

Realising they're outnumbered and outgunned, the nations opposed to the US actions begin creating their own fur soldiers to oppose the massive swathes of American military might.

Other than for added fuury-fandom audiance, is there any real reason why these soldiers are furry? When decked out in pounds of military gear, I doubt that a fur coat would be something you'd want to have.

The US responds to these actions by airstriking key nations airfields and fur-factories. Argentina, Brazil, South Africa, Russia, Germany, China, and France are all attacked by F-117 fighters as a pre-empted attack.

The F-117's already retired, and like I said, these installations would most likely already be taken out. Also, any reason for these nation in particular? Where's Venezuela, North Korea, Iran, etc. You know, the guys that actually think we are out to get them and would do something like this?

This triggers WW3. Canada and Northern Europe are the main fighting grounds, and after 7 years and 5 atomic weapon strikes, the USA surrenders, and states splinter away. Most of the northern border states and Alaska defect and become part of Canada, while the Hawaii and all the East Coast States down to Florida become independant. This leaves the US with 25 states, the capital city being in Springfield, Illinois.

The use of nuclear missiles also would most likely not stop the US. Rather, their use would give the US a legitimate reason to use the nuclear weapons we have against whatever enemy. There would be no surrender, only extreme escallation -even if we don't have a Dead Hand system like that Everything2 article reports.

After the war, the country looks like this -



It is still economically strong enough to function with UN (now called United Allied Nations) support.

The reason Canada becomes the next superpower is that over the next 50 years after the war, vast swathes of American and European people and buisnesses head over and take their wealth with them (much like people did to the USA after WW2) Add to that, that the first synthetic oil is created in Canada, a creation that saves the industries.

Compare and contrast the armed forces of Canada and the US. After decades of modern warfare, how well do you think Canada would be faring? How well would any nation be faring? Furthermore, if nukes are indeed used, the fallout from these devices would soon drift over to Canada, much the same as US air pollution already is, increasing the devestation.

As for the UK, well, I never said it was called the United Kingdom. After the war, the monarchy step down, and in their place a new "Chancellor" position sort of like a president is introduced. The country is now called just "Britain", and consists of England, Scotland, and Wales, each running their own affairs but still collaberating together on important issues such as money and the people.

So it's exactly how it is?

Ireland, is of course, seperate.

'Cept for that.

Remember though, this is meant to be a Dystopian vision...

Remember, you asked for a critical view.

[Fritz]

[21:17] <Roo> Poo to you Loe, I'm doing it

[Rooster]

Remember folks, it's set AFTER a pandemic has wiped out two thirds of the human population.

Old alliences and friendships tend to go out the window as you're mowing down refugees to stop a disease spreading to your country from all borders, and watching people die everywhere.

The world isn't the same as it is now. Demand for oil is needed to get the civilised world back on track, fuel cleanup vehicles, refugee ships, planes, releif helicopters, and of course the sities and powerstations. This is WORLD WIDE, and oil starts becomming scarce just after the pandemic is over....like, most of it IS already gone, and most of the rest of that is located in the North Sea and Canada. And with both the Canadian and UK Governments desperate to keep the LAST oil on the planet to themselves for their people and country after the planet's worst ever disaster.

Also, it's a work of fiction about furries and UFOs...this IS just the backstory to how their world got to how it is...i.e, nearly 150 years in the future, but with tech more like 20 years advanced because I'm too lazy to imagine 150 years in the furture but I've seen Bladerunner and Children Of Men too many times.

[Loeln]

With two thirds of the world population gone, demand for oil will greatly reduce, no matter where those two thirds are lost from. Global pandemics also don't do much for the international world market, as most nations would most likely opt to go for isolation from one another for awhile out of concern for that or another disease. If it's right after or during the pandemic while nations are still trying to cure the disease, I think the medication for the disease would be in wide demand rather than mass amounts of oil

Besides, would the other oil producing areas of the world would run absolutely dry of oil before the North Sea or Canada did? Not to mention that England is not the only nation pumping the North Sea at all; Norway is currently greatly benefitting from oil in the North Sea and North Atlantic.

There's all these factors to consider unless you don't be quite so specific with the details, or go so many years in the future, after numerous different events (besides only a pandemic) affected the global economy and world relations. I don't think any of this is a WWIII scenario. Some war or other after that, perhaps, though then you'd be out of using oil reliance for a plot device.

[Tom Flapwell]

FWIW, earlier this week, I read part of a G.K. Chesterton essay from 1905. He warned that the U.S. was showing signs of decay and might not be long for this world. Dunno whether he misassessed or it took a turn for the better.