Does order exist?

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CodeCat
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Postby CodeCat » Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:15 am

I'm not sure you can really prove anything. That's why they often just accept a theory as true until it's disproven in some way.

But quantum physics doesn't just use randomness as an explanation, it's actually true. It sounds weird and kind of complicated but I'll try to explain the basics here (insert giant 'warning: advanced brain mangling hazard' sticker):

What it really comes down to is how particles interact with each other. Usually, they do so with 'messenger' particles called photons. The photons cause particles to repel or attract each other based on their distance and electric charge. If a photon is emitted, we see it as light or some other kind of radiation. But we can also shine photons (perhaps light, or microwaves, X-rays, gamma, whatever) onto a particle to see where it is, because photons could bounce off or get refracted by it. Photons are basically the 'manifestation' of what we call a light ray, and they have both a wavelength and energy. They are particles that act as both little dots and as waves (in the same sense as a sound wave, but without the air - they just 'wave' by themselves).
But there's a problem there that makes it less than failsafe. Because particles are also very small, a photon's wavelength determines how likely it 'bounces' off a particle. A longer wavelength means that it is less likely to hit a small particle, and instead just go right through it. Although that sounds weird, imagine that a photon is really just some sort of vibration, not really a little dot in space. Now, the energy that a photon carries also depends on its wavelength. Shorter wavelengths have more energy than longer ones.
And that's where the problem is: the more energy a photon has, the more likely it is to send anything it hits flying. Compare a feather to a tanker truck and you'll get the idea. But because lower energies also mean longer wavelength, and therefore less chance to hit a particle, you run into a dilemma. And that dilemma is called the 'Uncertainty principle':

You can never know both the position and the movement of a particle. The more accurate you know one, the less accurate you can measure the other.

This means that you can't really know exactly what state anything is in, because once you try to measure the position of particles you disrupt their movement. And when you measure movement, their position becomes blurry.
This applies to what we see of particles, but it also affects how particles interact with each other in the same way (because every particle has its own kind of 'wave' associated with it, just like a photon). So even with particles bumping into each other, the same uncertainty rules apply.

So, the randomness is not only 'real', but it affects everything at the very small level. If you zoom in enough, all things become blurry and uncertain. You can never know exactly where something is, because if you try to 'see' it it won't be there for much longer.

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Novil Ariandis
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Postby Novil Ariandis » Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:50 pm

Everyone who is interested in "Order vs. Chaos" should play Planescape Torment. The game is awesome in general but also has several very well written conversations about this particular topic.
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Rooster
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Postby Rooster » Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:29 pm

No matter how chaotic something is, there is always an order to it. It's mearly our perceptions that allow, or disallow us to see it.

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Muninn
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Postby Muninn » Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:01 pm

Of course there is order. Orders exist in almost every country nowadays and you are eligible whether you're a citizen or a military official. Orders usually have five classes, such as Belgium's Order of Leopold or the UK's Order of the British Empire.

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Postby Tum0spoo » Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:02 pm

...such as Belgium's Order...
Waffles?

I couldn't resist. Forgive me.
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Tom Flapwell
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Postby Tom Flapwell » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:26 pm

Everyone who is interested in "Order vs. Chaos" should play Planescape Torment.
Or The Longest Journey. I'm not sure about Dreamfall.

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Novil Ariandis
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Postby Novil Ariandis » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:59 pm

...such as Belgium's Order...
Waffles?

I couldn't resist. Forgive me.
LOL :D
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Foxhound
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Postby Foxhound » Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:52 pm

loose order with general chaos.
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Tom Flapwell
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Postby Tom Flapwell » Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:11 pm

Imagine if some judge went nutty and said, "Chaos in the court!"

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Postby Tum0spoo » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:25 pm

Imagine if some judge went nutty and said, "Chaos in the court!"
The trial of the people vs. FF1's Final boss Chaos is now in session.
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Tavis
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Postby Tavis » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:52 pm

...such as Belgium's Order...
Waffles?

I couldn't resist. Forgive me.
Forgiven. :P

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Postby ShadOtterdan » Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:11 pm

Well of course there is order, if everything was completely chaotic, then there would be order in the fact that you can expect everything to be chaotic.
By the power of greyskull, I'm not sure I believe that.

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Postby Burning Sheep Productions » Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:34 pm

advanced brain mangling hazard
I still don't get how randomness is shown to be true there... from that all I can get is that we ain't gonna know everything jus' by lookin' at it.
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CodeCat
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Postby CodeCat » Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:57 pm

Well, what I meant to say was that the randomness is not only in how we see things, but how they interact with each other as well. Even if you DO know their exact position and movement, you still can't predict what will happen because particles will act randomly to each other. One time you look, one particle might bump into another and scatter, and the next time the exact same particle might harmlessly pass another. There's even an incredibly small chance that all particles might just pass through each other at the same time, and let you walk straight through a wall. I'm not kidding!
Furries? Are they the nutters that pretend to be animals and draw humans that look like animals? Christ, I sink my head into my paws... -Rooster

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Novil Ariandis
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Postby Novil Ariandis » Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:13 pm

Completely off-topic:

Haha, lol. Even the official tourist website of Belgium has a site dedicated to Belgian Waffles: http://www.visitbelgium.com/waffles.htm (sometimes served with whipped cream)
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