Random Philosophy/Physics 2

Foxchild · Postby **Foxchild** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:48 pm

Actually, the topic description has it. This just came to mind a little while ago. I'm cetain you've all heard the saying 'If a tree falls in the woods and no-ones around, does it make a sound?" Well, let's hear your arguments on the idea. I may just step back from this thread and see where it goes. This thread at least doesn't require knoledge of the mathematical possibilities of other dimensions at least! also, what other things could be vieweed in the same light, and why?

dobbs · Postby **dobbs** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:31 pm

Everything has consequences. To say that which we cannot perceive does not exist is dangerous folly.

misummer · Postby **misummer** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:31 pm

if dark matter cannot be seen or touched, is it there?

dobbs · Postby **dobbs** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:43 pm

Ah, but dark matter exhibits influence, otherwise we would not be looking for more tangible evidence. Besides, I thought nobody really knew what "dark matter" was -- it's merely used as a label for discrepencies between reality and our theories.

Zaaphod · Postby **Zaaphod** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:51 pm

I've always liked the version in "The Far Side": "If a tree falls on a mime in the forest and no one is around, does anyone care?"

misummer · Postby **misummer** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:51 pm

"dark matter" it exists. its gravity helps the galaxy go round. it doesn't respond to electromagnetic waves, and electromagnetic waves are what we see, and what creates resistance between us and what we touch. so we cannot see it or touch it.... will we ever know what it really is? *shrug.*

erikbarrett · Postby **erikbarrett** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:20 pm

Answer to original question: yes. The impact of the tree hitting the ground causes shockwaves that are called "sound." Following the Berkley(sp?) thought train, anything that isn't observed doesn't exist. However, last time I talked about that, I ended up getting a response like "God observes everything, so everything exists." Sounds kinda fishy to me. Dark matter (and dark energy) is a theory attempting to describe how less matter exists than is currently accounted for. No one knows if it really exists or not.

Tavis · Postby **Tavis** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:33 pm

Erik.. but what if no one hears the sound, and no one goes into the woods to observe the remains or evidence of sound coming from a fallen tree because they're waiting for it to show up on a TV somewhere? Would these woods even exist if no one was observing it? If no one even observed the woods, who's to say a tree even fell? I feel this question is answered as "Yes" simply because by its premise, a tree DID fall, and that whether we heard it or not, any observer (including ourselves) would be able to detect evidence of a sound being made by other parts of the system; the tree itself, tremors transmitted through the ground. Of course, if the woods were in some sort of isolated vacuum, like say in a fictitious abandoned space station, the sound would not be allowed to cross the void to any observers outside of its system. That does not necessarily mean that there was no sound nor that there was a sound; it simply means that outside observers could not hear it.

penguinita · Postby **penguinita** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:38 pm

it all depends on the definition of "sound." if you use the (fisiks) defintion of compression waves in air or soem other meduim that are hearable by the human eeiardrum (or heck, you could say, by any creatures eardrum- that way including dogs and whales which can hear stuf out of our range of hearing), thne yes a tree falling makes sound. if you use the (filosofers) definition of "nothing happens unless someone observs it" then no. (i made these defintions up off the top of my head, so i don't promis for acruacy. also, ohter definitons are possibe)

norsenerd · Postby **norsenerd** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:13 pm

sound n. 1. 1. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing. 2. Transmitted vibrations of any frequency. 3. The sensation stimulated in the organs of hearing by such vibrations in the air or other medium. 4. Such sensations considered as a group. 2. A distinctive noise: a hollow sound. 3. The distance over which something can be heard: within sound of my voice. 4. Linguistics. 1. An articulation made by the vocal apparatus: a vowel sound. 2. The distinctive character of such an articulation: The words bear and bare have the same sound. 5. A mental impression; an implication: didn't like the sound of the invitation. 6. Auditory material that is recorded, as for a movie. 7. Meaningless noise. 8. Music. A distinctive style, as of an orchestra or a singer. 9. Archaic. Rumor; report. v. sounded, sounding, sounds v. intr. 1. 1. To make or give forth a sound: The siren sounded. 2. To be given forth as a sound: The fanfare sounded. 2. To present a particular impression: That argument sounds reasonable. v. tr. 1. To cause to give forth or produce a sound: sounded the gong. 2. To summon, announce, or signal by a sound: sound a warning. 3. Linguistics. To articulate; pronounce: sound a vowel. 4. To make known; celebrate: Nations unborn your mighty names shall sound (Alexander Pope). 5. To examine (a body organ or part) by causing to emit sound; auscultate. Phrasal Verb: sound off 1. To express one's views vigorously: was always sounding off about higher taxes. 2. To count cadence when marching in military formation. [Middle English soun, from Old French son, from Latin sonus. See swen- in Indo-European Roots.] Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. So yes. A tree does make a sound. Also as to the dark mater we do know it exists. One reason is to keep our galaxy and others from spining out of controll. There is aparantly soem sort of dark mater halo around all galaxies keeping htier angular momentium proper for their angular velocity. There are also MACHOS (MAssive Compact Halo Objects) like brown dwarfs, white dwarfsm neutrn stars, and black holes among others. These are examples of dark mater that we know exist. These object are too cold (or too gravatonaly dense) to emit enough light to see and don't hapen to reflect enough light to see. What we CAN see is Gravatational Lensing of light. these object bend light like any other massive object and we can see these bends if we observe it corectly. That said that is not ALL the dark mater that exists. From various measurments of the large scale structure of the universe at presant and in the past we can measure the energy density of various diferent objects or type of objects (a measure of how much of an object is there relative to each other and relative to a "critical" energy density of the universe). The radiation density of the universe is about 0. The energy density if byronic mater (mater that we can see, feel, are made of) is .04. wherass the energy density of dark mater is .26. That's alot in comparison. Most mater is dark mater most of which we have no idea what it is. There alse exists a cosmological constant (something that causes the universe to speed up it's expansion that we have no idea what it is and what I think is being referd to as "dark energy") who's energy density is .7. SO by comparison what e see is a very small part of what's out there.

Burning Sheep Productions · Postby **Burning Sheep Productions** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:37 am

I hate the tree falling thing, and especially that one hand clapping thing too. They're both confusuions of definition. And that one hand clap just annoys me, I wonder what the hell they were on at the time. Oh, and if you've read the 'His Dark Materials' trilogy you'd know a lil' on dark matter and the parallel universe thing. So, I've come up with a theory that's kinda complicated. Alright, say 5 seconds equalled 5cm, you can scale 5cm down infinitley so the same goes for time. And with quantum physic stuff and probably Dark Matter, they are random and affect everything else. So there's an infinite amount of possabilities, like direction change, there's infinite differences between 60 and 61 degrees right? So, every infinitley small frame of time, an infinite number of universes are created for every single possability possible. And, are there such things as white holes? And white matter?

Foxchild · Postby **Foxchild** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:42 am

White holes i had heard a theory on... but not a very good theory. It was described to me as an anti-gravety well. Something that pushed outwards instead of pullin in, and it was 'white' becuase it scattered any light that entered it outwards. I personally don't believe this, but just thought i'd throw the theory out there, in case anyone could put some credit to it. (*waits for norsenerds or calc teachers response...*) White matter, no thats a new one to me. well, salt crystals are white, and they're matter... so, there you go! Alright, i know thats not what was meant, so disregaurd that then!

norsenerd · Postby **norsenerd** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:57 pm

I, personaly, have yet to hear a sensable theory on white holes and I don't know what that wqhite mater thing is. But BSP there is pley wrong with that one paragraph. Sorry.  <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' ><tr><td class='quotetop'>Quote: </td></tr><tr><td class='quotebody'> Alright, say 5 seconds equalled 5cm, you can scale 5cm down infinitley so the same goes for time.</td></tr></table>  As you get down small enoguht time and distance don't have any meaning (thoguh you can compare time and distance in that manner) as well as there beign 10+ dimensions to wory about. Evetuly your scaling efect will have no meaning. Of cours you could scall it down an infinate amout of times if you only scalt it down by infinatesimal amouts such that you never get any smaller then some measurment large enough to avoid quantium space.  <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' ><tr><td class='quotetop'>Quote: </td></tr><tr><td class='quotebody'> And with quantum physic stuff and probably Dark Matter, they are random and affect everything else.</td></tr></table>  What's so random about dark mater. Also while curent therory curently represents quantum states by probability functions thse are also based off of time and distance relations on quantium levels. Things exost at quantium states and I don't know waht I'm talking about any more then that so I'll leave it alone. But still what's so randum aboutt dark mater?  <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' ><tr><td class='quotetop'>Quote: </td></tr><tr><td class='quotebody'> So there's an infinite amount of possabilities, like direction change, there's infinite differences between 60 and 61 degrees right?</td></tr></table>  Now I do know that as far as it loks things tend to be quantized (dircrete rather then xontinous) at the quantium level including space and time. Like there can only exist electric charge in integral multiples of one third the charge of an electron. So if space and time ar quantized as well there are onyl a finate differences between 60 and 61 degrees granted it is a vary large number. vry large indead.  <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' ><tr><td class='quotetop'>Quote: </td></tr><tr><td class='quotebody'> So, every infinitley small frame of time, an infinite number of universes are created for every single possability possible.</td></tr></table>  Why? Even if time wasn't quantized into a smalest length (actuly that itself has no meaning but quantium states do exist at discrete positions in quantum space so that is quantized) why would there ahve to be each posability hapening? Why couldn't just one thing happen? I'm sorry BSP. Some of what I'm arguing is based off of personal preferance so you could have said some right things but also some of it is wrong. I'm sorry for beign so mean about it.

ShadOtterdan · Postby **ShadOtterdan** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:40 pm

Even disregarding the whole infinity thing, I believe there really are alternate universes where some slight change has happened, and that one for every difference is created every quantum of time. There are even universes that are exactly the same as ours except they were created a couple years later. Therefore making time travel possible. As for the tree falling in a forest, there is always someone around to hear it, there's always the bugs and the birds and squirrels and other creatures to notice the existence of the fallen tree. The one hand clapping is easily explained, snap your fingers or slap yourself, that is the sound of one hand clapping.

norsenerd · Postby **norsenerd** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:16 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' ><tr><td class='quotetop'>Quote: </td></tr><tr><td class='quotebody'> I believe there really are alternate universes where some slight change has happened</td></tr></table>  I'm sorry I'm naging but why? I think it's ok you you don't have a reason I believe things with little to no reason so I can't argue if it's just because but is this one of those things or is there other reasons. I've heard motavations for te existance alturnative universes (one I think) and that one dosn't sound very good to me.

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